I am in the process of building Rob Roy - anyone else?

struggling to complete "rob roy" where can i get a lubrication pump

Sorry I cant help, I am still on the eccentrics and coupling rod stage

Thanks for response. Be careful from now on there are many discrepancies with
dimensions shown in book and drawings.
Examples are
1 horizontal centres of cylinders
2 linkages do not pass front hornblocks
3 steam pipes will not be as shown in front elevation

Sorry to be slow to reply but I have been doing other things for a while - now back on task with RR. I understand the point about the cylinder alignment and will correct this when I machine them - the point about the linkages is not so obvious even though I have studied the drawings. Could you give me more details please and any corrective action before I start bashing metal.
This is my first engine, I do have some engineering skills and good equipment backed up by some knowhow but I find Martin Evans book great if you are a skilled engineer and fully understand all the processes and how the thing works! - I do not beleive it to be a beginer project.
Yes there are one or two errors on the drawings and discrepancies between the book and the drawings but for me the biggest downer is that there is no version control on the drawings so you cant tell if known errors have been corrected. In my business the lack of this would put the drawings squarely in the "Ham" category.
So any tips greatly appreciated
Hat

Any 1" square rachet driven pump will do. I got mine from Norman Spink (in the 80's) but I see Reeves advertise one on this site. I also got the axle water pump from Norman Spink it was designed specifically for Rob Roy.

many thanks for your response have now managed to produce
my own from the book. the next problem seems to be the fiddling
with the brake gear and then setting the eccentrics
thanks again

final stages of rob roy. whats the best way of joining the side tanks together

Hello again
probably against all the rules i soft solder mine the water should keep the heat away

Have you run the engine yet. What about the cab details

I am new to this group (joined yesterday). I am just now starting construction of the side tanks. I am building them out of 1/16" brass. I will cut the side & end pieces individually and join them in the corners with 3/16" sq. brass bar (2-56 machine screws) & then soft solder. The radiussed part of the tank will be made by milling longitudinal grooves @ 90 degrees in 1/2" brass rod into which to butt the plates thereby forming the radius. I have chosen this method because I am not confident of my ability to form 1/16" brass sheet. Also, by using thicker brass and corner reinforcement, the weight of the locomotive will be increased (from what I have read, a good thing). After soldering the tanks, I will file off the screw heads and fill any pits, blemishes, etc. Since it will be painted this should work fine. I have completed the boiler, chassis, lubricator, and some of the other fittings. It runs very well on air. Rick, Cape Cod, MA, USA

Welcome RicK - your tank desigh seems worth a look - any in-build photos
Hat - Abingdon England

Hat, Alas, I have not been disciplined enough to document the construction. I will try and take a picture or two and post them (If I can figure out how to do it).
Rick

Hi, I have just come across this blog though I have been rebuilding a part built Rob Roy for some months. I am the third owner of the model and have had to return to the basic chassis as nothing fitted and the whole as assembled was seized solid. I found an excellent list of errors and corrections for Rob Roy drawings on this site: http://www.alanstepney.info/page43.html
I am now trying to incorporate some of the corrections into already machined cylinders.

Welcome Bob, - Alan Stepney has the best list of errors around - however I believe that there has been more than one issue of the drawings - so take care. Could I also point you at the web site "Model Engineers Clearing House" which is a great site, Alan just happens to be one of the moderators there. Also you might like to visit Colin Ushers site which is a gold mine of information.
My build is slow because I only get a few hours per week and I am a bit of a perfectionist - I love making jigs and being innovative - I know that making a jig is a "waste of time" for some model engineers but I think its part of the bigger picture of enjoyment. I am working on the gear and have just ordered the Cast Iron for the cylinders and piston rings - I will make both from scratch.
I am also photographing every step on most components as I go. I have a nice machine shop, A heavy (chinese) miller, a lovely Myford Diamond 10, 10 years old and in showroom condition. A new Cowell ME lathe and enough tools to last a few lifetimes, many inherited from my fathers workshop. When I die they will need a big hole because they are going with me as none of my family will have the slightest clue what to do with them!
Hat

Hi Hat, thanks for the welcome. I have added those sites to my favourites list. My Rob Roy seems to have had 2 previous builders. The early work on the frame is good though 2 springs keep dropping out - I think they are too short or their seats have been drilled too deep. As the cylinders have already been machined to the original drawings yesterday I made an offset valve crosshead. I'll try it for fit and make another if all is OK. My cylinders are brass with steel or gunmetal pistons and rings and have been bored just over an inch. I also have a boiler which is a Cheddar commercially made item though it is some 20 years old. I had it pressure tested at the local club last month. I am finding this an expensive project as I am buying tools as I go along and have no stock of materials. The next project should be much cheaper! If I take a few pictures is it possible to share them here? Bob

On the question of the springing, I think this was a design fault, mainly because there is no adjustment other than to lengthen or chop off the springs, there is no way of capturing them.
I have redesigned mine and used a more conventional approach of springing below the axle boxes.as far as the cylinder allignment is concerned because I am machining from scratch I will adjust the cylinder block dimensions. I think that the key to a good renovation will lie in how accurate the frames were produced - just a few thou out with the axle centres, screws up the whole con rod settings - and will be difficult to correct. - The boiler should be fine if its had a "modern" test.
Im not sure how to get photos on the site - I will ask Reeves.
Hat

Yes I am considering making a small indentation for the top end of the springs to locate into. I will need to adjust these springs anyway. Yes as you say the chassis accuracy is important. After requartering the wheels and rebushing the connecting rods the wheels turn fine. Bob

I asked Reeves by EM how to get photos on the site, but they have not responded,
I think that Reeves are like many other "traditional" Suppliers yet to catch up with the modern age - if it dont run on steam etc etc
Hat

Chuff chuff ah well Hat at least you tried. I am currently remaking the crossheads - again another problem of buying a part built model. The piston rod holes were not drilled straight and the rest looked a bit tatty even after filing up. We will get there one day but I am enjoying the journey.

Bob
Thats what I hate! correcting my own B***ups never mind someone elses!
I have a problem at the moment - I have spent a lot of machining time on the eccentric straps and the rods - came to drill the rod ends where they join to the expansion links and managed to get them drilled cock eyed. I am away for a week so I will have time to think about it - but current plan is to re-drill them oversize and bush them with bronze bushes. I did something stupid - I use old plastic door keys between the Drill table and the job ( like credit cards without the embossing) However I did not have one to hand and used a plastic window packing and bolting the rod down, compressed one side down and the hole went askew

I can sympathise with that sort of problem, I don't have any of those nice fancy parallels for packing so often make do like yourself. One of my eccentric rods had been drilled at a significantly different length in spite of the previous owner having Martin Evan's book. The guy obviously hadn't read the bit about it being important to be the same length. I have silver soldered a piece of steel through the holes and will remachine the end before redrilling.

I have only recently joined this blogg so can somebody tell me what the errors are as regards the cylinder blocks. Unfortunately I machined my cylinder blocks a few years ago.
I hope to hear some comments soon.

L.N.E.R

Hi LNER, the main problem with the cylinder blocks is that if machined to the drawing the valve actuating gear fouls the front horn block. The recommended mod is to leave extra thickness on the block to move the valve gear inboard. My Rob Roy was part built when I bought it so I have the same problem as you. I have made a pair of offset valve crossheads to achieve the same thing, however I haven't assembled the valve gear yet so can't tell you if it has worked OK. The mods are listed on the website referred to by Hat just a few comments up this blog. So don't panic all is not lost. Though I understand that some folks have simly filed a bit off the hornblocks.

Thanks for the help BobH
At the moment I havn't tried the cylinder blocks in the frames. So Iwill bear this in mind when I have a trial fitting.

Thanks L.N.E.R

Hi BoBH
At the moment I havn't tried the cylinders in the frames.So when it comes to a trial fitting I wiil bear this in mind.

Thanks for your help

I am in the process of constructing the tanks for my Rob Roy and have run into a problem which Idid not know about, nor have I read about it. I started building the rear tank that is in the back of the cab on the footplate. I built it according to the dimensions shown on the plans, but when I tried to position it, I found that it was interferring with the quadrant, The drawings show the center of the quadrant to be 2-1/2" ahead of the back of the frame. The drawing shows the back of the tank to be 1/4" ahead of the buffer beam. the tank is shown to be 1-3/4" wide. This only allows 1/2" from the vertical centerline of the quadrant to the front of the tank(Coal plate). It just will not fit. I guess I will just reduce the width of the tank by approximately 1/4". Has anyone else run ointo this "glitch"?

Rick
Cape Cod, MA USA

Hi Rick
This is a new one to think about, however it highlights a difficulty that I keep banging on about. NO VERSION CONTROL ON THE DRAWINGS - so are your drawings the same as mine?
I suspect that a reduction of this amount is a lot of work so I will certainly watch for it.
Regards
Hat

Hat,

As far as I can see, there is no revision date shown on my drawings (set of 6). I purchased the castings and drawings in 1994, so I have no idea if any revisions have been made since then. Luckily, the change in the tank will not be too difficult because I am fabricating the tanks from 1/16" brass sheets. the corners are made with 3/16" sq. brass bars with screw fasteners. The tank will be sealed with soft solder and the screws countersunk and the heads filled. I caught the error before completely fabricating the tank, so it will only involve taking some metal off the edges of flat the flat tank pieces. At this point, I am glad I did not try to fabricate the tank by bending. That would have been a bit more difficult to correct, to say the least!.

Rick
Cape Cod, MA USA

According to Alan Stepney at http://www.alanstepney.info/page43.html The Rob Roy drawings have never been corrected, updated or re-issued. Alan gives a list of most known problems with the Rob Roy design. Bob

Hi, Is anyone making progress on their Rob Roy? I am progressing slowly. I just finished the throttle (regulator), superheaters and the smokebox manifold. I redesigned the connection between the regulator and the superheater. I am making the seal with an o-ring rather than threaded connections. I also modified the superheater manifold. I used 1/4"copper refrigeration tubing fittings (silver soldered) to make up the smokebox piping in lieu of making the bends and tee connections. Does anyone have any thoughts as to the best way of sealing the pistons? I do not want to make rings, so I guess my choices are graphite packing, teflon, or o-rings. I am leaning toward graphite yarn as recommended in the book. Thoughts??
Rick
Cape Cod, MA USA

Hi Rick,
why not make the rings in cast iron? I have details of all the machining jigs you need and providing you have a reasonably accurate lathe they should be easy - I will make spare sets as an insurance for the future.
David Price - Abingdon England

Hi Dave, I guess the main reason is that I was following the Book and it recommended packing. The pistons are also finished and I don't know if the existing groove would be correctly dimensioned for cast iron. Maybe I could machine the rings to match the groove? Do you have any thoughts on that aspect. Also, I do not have any cast iron (good stuff) laying around. Rick

Hi Rick
Dont change tack now!
Im as interested in the engineering as I am in the finished product, I am hacking the cylinders out of solid cast, I will make the pistons and the rings to suit- the rings need accurate jigs and thats part of the challenge!
Good luck
David (Hat)

I am building Rob Roy but have run into a problem. The top water guage fitting has no hole in it to allow water to rise up the guage glass. Martin Evans book shows no detail for this part. I can't believe that the water is intended to rise up the glass purely by capilliary action. How have others overcome this apparent problem.

Hi,
I just finished the sight glass for my Rob Roy. You are right that there must be an opening at the top. Since you mentioned Martin's Book, I am assuming it is titled Rob Roy/William and that you have it. In it on page 201, he shows a detail for the William water gauge. I used this detail, but screwed it up by not insuring that both boiler bushes were perfectly placed. That along with the fact that differences in where the threads were started on the fittings, the glass was out of alignment when screwed in and therefore did not seal tightly. I solved this problem by fitting the sight glass rigidly to a brass bar , offsetting it approximately 0.5 inch, and making the connections at 90 degrees to the boiler with banjo fittings. It looks OK and it has the added benefit of allowing a bit more room for the firebox door to be operated. Good luck, Rick, Cape Cod, MA, USA

Thanks Rick,
I've only got the original 'Rob Roy' book but from your comments, I think I can modify the fitting to suit. Do you think a 1/8 hole will be sufficient to go from the fitting into the boiler.

Hi, The drawing of the "William" sight glass shows a hole sizes drilled with a #30 drill which is slightly larger than 1/8". 1/8" would probably be fine. I always tend to always go a bit more than specified, but that is just me. Rick

Thanks agian Rick -I'll follow your advice and use a number 30.

Hi. I have been reading the various comments and suggestions on this site and thank you all for your input which may help me.
I have been able to obtain a 90% complete Rob Roy which has been made quite well although doesn't incorporate all the various modifications noted. The model has never been fired up and unfortunately I do not know when it was worked on to get it to this stage.
The boiler has been completed to the cleading stage. However it does not have a pressure test certificate.
Am I going to have to strip the boilerdown to the basic barrel and fire box for it to be tested or can it be done with all the various fittings, regulator in situ?
I do not have the machinery or skill to build such a locomotive which is why I was pleased to obtain such an advanced model.
Hopefully someone will be able to offer me advice.
Regards,
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Boiler testing is something that is best discussed with one of the nominated testers at your local model engineering club. I have found them very helpfull with my models. Regards Bob

Does anyone know who can supply the water injector? Norman Spink used to but he has gone to the great railway in the sky. Blackgates were taking over his business but I cannot find any reference on their site.

I'm still struggling to find anyone who either produces the complete article or castings for the feed pump. Reeves don't do it, so do I have to manufacture from scratch ?

Does anyone know who produces the castings for the superheater return bend ?

I just completed constructing the superheater for my Rob Roy. What I used for the returns were a couple piece of stainless steel fashioned out of the heads of some bolts I had in my junk box. I drilled them, filed them to shape and brazed them to 1/4" SS tubing. They looked pretty good when finished. I was concerned that the brazed (not silver soldered) connections would not hold up, but the consensus is that the brazing would be OK. Good Luck. Rick

Hi Rick,

The gunmetal parts seem to have disappeared. I've got some Brass bar which I'll fashion the ends from. Going to use copper pipe and braze them all up. I'll go for non radiant headers in that they'll lie within the flue tubes. Not the best but it should survive. Where have all the essential parts gone, given people are still building Rob Roy ?

Hi, I am in the process of starting Rob Roy from a complete set of drawings, castings and material I purchased 21 years ago. This is my first attempt at model engineering and building a locomotive. I also have the construction manual. What I have noted with the drawings and construction manual is no tolerances are specified.

Particularly, with the running gear it is important to make things as close to tolerance as possible, else it won't work. I have read the posted comments and some show that ME's are experiencing problems in this area. I have cut and filed the sideframes and beginning work on the horns and axleboxes.

Unlike indicated in the construction manual the horns are not the hot pressed type, they are a casting requiring a fair amount of metal to be removed. The milling of the horns and the axleboxes when assembled in the side frames will influence the positioning of the axles. What tolerance is required to be achieved for the distance between the axles, e.g. +/- 0.001"? I have a vernier capliper with a dial indicator that can read to 0.001", but the discrimination between each 0.001" is not that great. Do I need to have a set of micrometers?

Best regards

BrianL

I would say no to the micrometer - yes a very useful piece of kit but net essential for what you are doing. What you do need to do is read other comments on the lining up of the valve gear because the drawings are incorrect - what I did was to set the port face 1/8 further inside the frames and that should solve the problem. But there are other useful tips on the site and details of other sites to visit
Hat

Hat, I ran into the valve gear problem also, but I solved it by putting an offset in the connection to the valve spindle. You apparently found the problem earlier in order to correct it by moving the port faces. My only concern in doing this is that it would decrease the distance between the two valve covers by 1/4". The space between the two valve covers is minimal at best. How did you pipe the steam piping in such a small space? This whole piping arrangement as designed seems to be in need of improvement. Rick

just ordered my plans and frame steel so thought i would say hi to you all. have made a couple of stuart turners but this will be my first loco. thanks for all the info about plan issues.
phil

Hi Phil, I started my Rob Roy approximately 15 years ago and am hoping to get under steam this year. Obviously I have not worked on it continuously during this time or I would be much further along. Keep this group informed as to your progress and collectively we can give you heads up as to what to watch out for as you go along. Good Luck, Rick

Welcome Phil
I have been working on mine for two years although I dont get as much time on it as I would like- I'm just completing the motion gear and the cylinders. But I have the boiler, a chap in our club died and in his effects was a boiler built by Alex Farmer, I recognised it as Rob Roy and bought it for the cost of the materials. So as Rick says keep us posted.

Hi All,
I'm attempting to build Rob Roy but as usual, have run into Martin Errors mistakes. There are very many. I started by building LBSC Tich but not being a sewing machine mechanic, found it extremely difficult. Rob Roy seemed a good alternative. A late uncle of mine left me with a boiler ( not including the extra parts) and material for the mechanics. The so called 'words and music' in both Rob Roy and William leave much to be desired. What seemed obvious to them is far from it to me! Perhaps we should collectively get say 'Model Engineer' to run a series on Rob Roy with all the essential bits filled in. I'm not involved in mechanical engineering, so even what is obvious to others isn't to me. I have rudimentary workshop facilities but no more than that. It strikes me that building such an engine is more 'fitting and turning' than toolshop work. Having just spent 2 days making a very small piece, a good bit of guidance won't go unappreciated.

Hi, I just ran across a good discussion of the problems and quirks involved in the building and running of the Rob Roy. I recommend giving it a look.
http://modeleng.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=personal&action=display&thread=3275

Rick,
Cape Cod, Ma

Hi, though not Rob Roy per se, this link http://mokei-jouki.hp.infoseek.co.jp/e-Wiltop.htm is a good picture narrative, though English is not his first language, for building the 3.5 " William, scroll down to first project. Many of the machining tasks are similar to Rob Roy and if you are like me a novice, it adds insight to how things are done that is not evident in the construction manual.

regards,

BrianL

Hi,
I'm building the regulator. How do I mark out and accurately drill the 8 holes in it. I've read Stan Bray's book which basically says tough s**t. It has taken me some time just to make the part from a casting, so I don't want to mess it up.

Hi All
I've found a very simple way to do the marking out that only needs a basic geometry set. Make a card template of whats needed. cut out the inner boss using a scalpel and pop the hole centres using a Tungsten Carbide scriber. It's certainly as accurate as any other method I've come across. What I did was make the template on card by drawing the inner boss and outer diameter, then setting a diameter to suit the holes. I then marked lines at right angles and used a protractor to set the lines at 45 degrees. I then popped a hole using the scriber at the hole centres and cut out the inner boss hole using a scalpel. I then fitted the template onto the job and popped the hole centres using the scriber. After that I popped the hole centres using a centre punch. It may not be the best but it worked for me.

Hi.Can any one who is building or built a 3 1/2" gauge Rob Roy confirm that when the boiler is fixed in position the bottom of the boiler barrel is 5/16" above the mainframes ( ie 1 15/16" from centre of boiler as shown on the drawings minus half the diameter of the boiler ,1 5/8" ) As the bottom edges of the boiler wrapper sits on the horns preventing this measurement by 1/16".Also how do you secure the smoke box to the saddle when using the hollow casting. Regards Ian

Hi, I have just restarted my build of Rob Roy after several years, and having found this web site I would like to make contact with any one who can help me with the process of machining the cylinders. On reading some of the comments which relate to the machining of the cylinders, I am quite concerned about reports that the drgs are incorrect, and am hoping that some one can direct me in the right direction to getting the correct details, and prevent a possible disaster.
Larry.

Hi Larry
Yes there is a problem with the drawings - if you machine to the drawings the valve rods foul the frames by 1/8th of an inch.
Now there are solutions but lets start with are you using castings or cutting the cylinders from stock CastIron - I did the latter - quite a lot of work and difficult machining!
So one remedy is to get the inside face of the cylinder block 1/8th further inside the frames, however at the same time you must maintain the outer measurement of 1 1/16 inch from the outer face of the frames to the centre of the bore if you change this you will have problems with the alighnment of the motion gear.
I expect that you know the best and most accurate way to bore the cylinders is with a boring bar in the lathe - I also used a 15/16 reamer to get a good finish - if you dont have one you can borrow mine ( ?? assuming that you in the UK)
If you are using castings and there isnt enough meat on them to acheive the above another solution is to gain what you can on the inside and then use off-set valve cross heads.
This is not as tidy but it would work.
I am also fitting an excentric driven water pump so I have fitten an extra excentric on the driving axle ( I dont like crosshead driven pumps)
HAT

Hi HAT, wow that was quick I'm impressed. Many thanks for you information which I will need a little time to take it all in, I'm one of those beginners who is still trying to take in all the items and terminology required for this engine.
To answer your first question " I am using castings which I presume are Phospher Bronze, and so far I have one cylinder bored out, (I used a face plate in the lathe for this operation), I have a 15/16" reamer which is brand new and perhaps a little to sharp as I now have some small judder marks in the bore I need to remove. I have also faced off both ends of the cylinder which at present is approx 0.010" over the required 2.1/8", but still sits in the lathe awaiting the final cuts.
If it's at all possible HAT (that sounds so wrong and impersonnal), is there some drg details available which I could obtain in order for the modifications to be made clearer.
Thanking you so much and also for the offer of your reamer. (I do live in England, East Anglia Region).
Kindest Regards
Larry.

Larry, Be aware that if you decide to eliminate the valve gear linkage offset problem by moving the valve boxes rather than by offsetting the linkage, you will decrease the distance between the two valve boxes. This will make it much more difficult to install the piping between the valve box covers. When I did mine, I offset the linkage. If I had not, I doubt if I could have installed the piping with my fat fingers. I did not have any luck trying to ream the cylinders. I got them as best I could with a boring bar and then lapped them. Seems to have worked out OK. Good luck. Rick

Hi Rick, many thanks for your comments I'm some what overwhelmed at the response I've received after only two nights on this site, it's really nice to know there are people out there willing to help, thank you so much Rick.
Your comments I have taken on board, but as there are some problems with the dimensions in this area, I have just taken down my drawing board, blown the dust off and will try to lay out this area to see just what clearances I am really faced with. As for finishing off the bores of the cylinders I have decided to alt that operation, and instead focus on laying out the cylinders and linkage on a drawing to see infact just what one has to do to acheive the best result.
Once again Rick many thanks and hope this is the first of many contacts.
Larry

Larry
Look at my profle and you will find my E Mail address -- Hat is just fine! Real name David !!
I worked in computing since the dawn of E Mail and when the kids were young I had a Baseball cap ( before they were a fashion statement) and kids would come in the workshop " how do you know how to do that dad?"- well the knowledge is in the hat! hence the hatofknowledge tag. I could do you a sketch if I knew where to send it ( away on holiday for the next two weeks to Russia)
About the issue - I do agree with the comment that it decreases the space between the steam chests but I managed fine ( I have only got thin fingers!) I think that its better than off setting the valve crossheads - but thats an opinion!
I assume that you are fitting drain cocks to the cylinders - not on the drawings but covered in the book - I believe that these are essential

If the Reamer is leaving marks - I would slow down the spindle speed and the feed and use some cutting fluid - personally I have never heard of a Reamer being too sharp - but that might be true
as for the 0.10 on the length this is unimportant but I would try to get both the same length -- what is really important is that they fit the slot in the frames accurately.
As for the fixings I used three along the top and two along the bottom - but I introduced a circular cross stretcher in the middle hole to ensure that that was no lateral pressure on the pipe work - its bad practice to rely on the plumbing to take any of the pressure/thrust from the pistons.
Hat

Hi David, hope your holiday went off ok in Russia, one place I have not yet visited.
Regarding the sketch you suggested you could send to me if you had my address, well i would like to take you up on the offer, so I will send my address to your e-mail. Still pressing on with cylinders but have started to make the links to aid the understanding of the problem in the area of the cylinders assembly.
All the best
Larry.

List, I am getting ready to clead my Rob Roy. I have not seen much on how to do it. Questions I have are what material to use? thickness of the material (gap), and how to secure it? I am thinking of possibly using cork for the insulating material. The cleading material I have is brass sheet .062". This seems a bit heavy, but the material was free. Anyone have any thoughts on using a butt joint and screws vs. trying to hold it in place with banding? Any thoughts, and or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick. Cape Cod, MA

Hi Rick,
I think cork will scorch with the temperature of the boiler. At the working pressure the temperature is well over normal boiling point. A thin fibre material would be better.
I always fix the cleading with bands screwed at their joint under the boiler out of sight. That way you can adjust the tension. The brass you have should be fine, can you roll it to get the initial bend even?

Hi Folks. I hope you don't mind me joining in with some general comments.

First - a bit of history;
I started building this engine just over 32 years ago at the start of my apprenticeship as a machinist (I started at 16). I have had several long periods of zero activity but have managed to keep the rust away from the stored components and I do believe that I will soon be able to restart the mission.

I have the cast gunmetal cylinders machined to the dimensions given on the original 32 year old drawings - so looks like I will be carrying out one of the suggested modifications due to the drawing errors!!

I have almost all the chassis parts (frames, stretchers, axles, wheels and buffer beams etc). I will try to post some pictures of the parts because they might be of interest. I found a photograph of a Caledonian tank engine in a very old book. The engine looks remarkably like Rob Roy so I have based some of my detailed modifications on this picture. Modifications include much larger diameter buffers and what looked like various snap head rivets on the buffer beams etc.

However, I am now trying to remember why I made various decisions about 24 years ago. One classic is the boiler. For some strange reason, I have completed all the silver soldering of the boiler except for the water filling bushes on either side (close to the front). Has anybody got an idea why I might have done that. Is there an alternative or will my first restart job be to very carefully silver solder some bushes in place?

Hi Johnny,
I enjoyed seeing and reading your comments, made me feel good to see I was not the only one that re-started work on Rob Roy some 34 years after starting it. Finding this Chit Chat site is one of the best things ever, it brings people of like minds together very quickly, I only joined a few days ago and already I feel part of it all again.
I shall be very interested to hear what you have to say with regard to the making of your boiler up to it's present state, and the proceedure adopted in it's making, I am not yet at the stage of making the boiler, but feel it's delay is down to me in having the courage to make a start on such a difficult job.
Look forward to future contacts.
Larry.

Johnny,


You may not have had the bushes or known the right thread size. However now you are in this position you could possibly use a lower melting point silver solder so not to undo all the other work you have done. Put a bit of flux over the other joints around just in case they melt.

Thanks BobH- yes high temp soft solder could be used if I fit the inlet check valves. Looking further, I have now relocated the old book with the old picture of the engine. I note that there are no water inlet valves equivalent to the Rob Roy design. This might explain why I didn't fit them but I can't remember how I was going to inject the water - yet.

Hi, I made an error in drilling the steam passages on one cylinder. The error was not being able to hold the cylinder tight enough when held in the drilling vice, causing it move. The result is I drilled into the port face instead of the steam port. This had the potential to make the cylinder casting scrap. However, I decided to make an insert out of gunmetal that replicated the steam and exhaust ports. It was much easier to make the insert accurately because it required only drilling and careful filing (I don't have a milling machine) It improved the positional accuracy of the steam passages and exhaust port that I was able to achieve when milling. I decided to repeat the insert work around on the other cylinder which didn't suffer the same problem. A consequence of this is that the steam chests extended much further in between the frames, enabling the valve crossheads to well clear the front hornblocks. Being a novice, I wasn't sure that my work around would work. However, I found that an experienced live steamer had used the same (see http://www.saunalahti.fi/~animato/3003/3003z.html). My inserts were thicker than necessary, which made the steam connections via the steam chests covers too diffulcult. I decided to make the steam connections to the front of the valve covers using the design similar to that used on Masie.

Regards,

Brian L

Hi Brian.

I'm also building a Rob Roy. I am upto the cylinders & have made allowances so that the valve crossheads are clear of the hornblocks. But that creates a problem with the steam pipe connections to the steam chest covers. I have managed to just fit them in, but there's insufficient space to fit lock nuts between the pipes & steam chest covers. I like the idea of having the steam pipes at the front of the steam chest. Do you have any drawings of this set up ( a simple sketch would do, just to give me the basic lay out. Regards Ian

Hi Ian,

I used the picture displayed at http://www.stationroadsteam.com/stock%20pages/3840/pages/3840-d.htm as the basis. To ensure a steam tight joint I designed the blocks so that they intrude into the steam chest cover by an amount the thickness of the steam chest wall. This was done by silver soldering a short length of brass tube to the block. Since the design can be fitted as a complete assembly to the valve chest I silver soldered all the connections. Don't be tempted as I was to have the fixing holes for the blocks to be across the valve chests, otherwise you will drill into valve chest fixing studs at the front end. Hope this helps.

Regards

Brian

New and fairly ignorant: I'm an ex graphic designer who has DABBLED in engineering with a small lathe and a miller (Sieg X2) for a number of years. I've inherited Rob Roy frames from my son, who isn't progressing them any further.
My first problem (ignorance to the fore) - is gun metal still available?
I have some but not sufficient for the axleboxes.
If not available presumably I could substitute something else?
This may be too ambitious for me but I intend to give it a good go. My son tells me if I can't manage anything he can probably get it done for me in Malaysia - within reason.

Forgot to mention I have a boiler - tested and stamped.

Hi Ted,
Welcome to the group. A model such as Rob Roy is relatively straight forward and with a good boiler you are some way on. I would suggest you join a local model engineering club, if there is one. You will get lots of encouragement from such a group. As for supplies, Reeves can help you out but also you will find adverts from other suppliers online and in magazines such as Model Engineer.
Good luck and let us know how you get on I have been working on my Rob Roy for over a year and keep getting sidetracked.

Thanks very much for the encouragement Bob, I have a local group at Kinver - they displayed a member's Rob Roy recently at the Warley NEC expo.. I'm not sure whether I'll consider joining or not but I do have the support of my younger son (when he's in the Country) who is a Senior Mechanical Engineer.
I've bought Gun Metal in the past, but on trawling the Internet recently could only find a foundry supplying ingots, or places in India. Would phosphor-bronze fulfil the same functions for the axleboxes?
I see that Reeves list axleboxes but don't know if these are individual castings or what. I'd really like to machine them myself from bar. Comments from anyone would be very welcome.
Incidentally, I might need to get a move on, I'm now 71.

Reeves sell the material for the axel boxes in bar - one thing that you might consider is a design change to split the boxes in half- as designed once the wheels have been quartered and fixed you cant get the boxes off.
Hat

Hat, thanks for the info about the gun metal.
About splitting the axleboxes - you underestimate my ignorance (I'm taking things bit by bit and hoping I'll understand, and my advisory service is in Malaysia at present). Why would one want to remove the axleboxes? Would it be to replace when worn or could it be a defence mechanism in case of possible misalignment of the wheels? Secondly, how split the boxes, in what axis?
Told you, I really am ignorant: I hope I won't prove too tedious for you all.

Splitting is a lot of extra work but in the future may pay dividens - is it a showcase engine or a runner - if the later it will require Maintenance in the future and with split boxes this is much easier.

Hat,
Thanks for the reply again. At my starting age it may not be my concern (depends on how many years it takes) but I'd certainly like it to be capable of running and it's likely to be passed on to my younger son, at whatever stage it has reached.
I've sent off to Reeves for the gun metal for the boxes. If you have the patience to pass on any advice about splitting I'd be delighted to receive it.

Hi,

Personnaly, I wouldn't bother splitting the axel boxes on such a small engine, lifes too short. The reality is that you will use it occasionally for your own pleasure and the kids so just make sure you pay close attention to oiling up. Save those split axel boxes for that next larger project..

just testing

I assume if this post is on the forum the site is operating.

My current situation on my Rob Roy is that it has been successfully air tested and runs fine.

Another problem has raised its head, that of the the boiler feed pump. According to the book it is supposed to be an easy task to remove it by simply unscrewing 2 screws securing the bracket to the main frame.

My problem is I cannot get it installed without sever dismantling of the chassis. Has anyone elso found this please and how did they overcome it.

I have removed the bracket from the pump but still the valve box portion is too long to go into the space between the cylinder and the running board.

Has anyone suggestions how this can be overcome without a major dismantling of the running boards etc?

Thanks,

Jeff

Another question regarding the exhaust pipe work please?

This comprises 4 items, 2 horizontal pipes with locknuts, 1 tee piece and 1 vertical pipe.

What is the method of installing this between the cylinder outlet ports please?

Thanks and regards,

Jeff

The cylinders should already have been tapped,
Make the central component and the exhaust tubes - screw them into the central block to meet in the middle - you can see them through the oil inlet hole - they should exactly slide between the cylinders - then wind them out into the cylinder tappings. I made my exhaust tubes from hex leaving a small flat on each so that I could get a spanner on them.

This is the most tricky job on the RR

Hi all,

I see that things have gone quiet on the blog, maybe it's been hijacked by the last three entries???. I have nearly finished Rob Roy and a lot of the construction details for the cabin etc I have gleaned from pictures of completed Rob Roys at Station Road Steam, since the manual that I have bereft of detail . None of them appear to be the same, it appears the methods of construction are varied. However, I think that I may have an assembly issue. The problem is how do I get the spectical plate over the backhead of the boiler with the manifold and water guage top fixing in place? Originally I made the spectical plate affixed permanently to the remainder of the cabin, but changed it to being screwed on. My thoughts are that I should split the spectical plate so that it can be assembled, but all that I have seen shows the spectical plate to be one piece. Any comments are appreciated.

Regards,

Brian L

Hi all,

I see that things have gone quiet on the blog, maybe it's been hijacked by the last three entries???. I have nearly finished Rob Roy and a lot of the construction details for the cabin etc I have gleaned from pictures of completed Rob Roys at Station Road Steam, since the manual that I have bereft of detail . None of them appear to be the same, it appears the methods of construction are varied. However, I think that I may have an assembly issue. The problem is how do I get the spectical plate over the backhead of the boiler with the manifold and water guage top fixing in place? Originally I made the spectical plate affixed permanently to the remainder of the cabin, but changed it to being screwed on. My thoughts are that I should split the spectical plate so that it can be assembled, but all that I have seen shows the spectical plate to be one piece. Any comments are appreciated.

Regards,

Brian L

Hi all,

I see that things have gone quiet on the blog, maybe it's been hijacked by the last three entries???. I have nearly finished Rob Roy and a lot of the construction details for the cabin etc I have gleaned from pictures of completed Rob Roys at Station Road Steam, since the manual that I have bereft of detail . None of them appear to be the same, it appears the methods of construction are varied. However, I think that I may have an assembly issue. The problem is how do I get the spectical plate over the backhead of the boiler with the manifold and water guage top fixing in place? Originally I made the spectical plate affixed permanently to the remainder of the cabin, but changed it to being screwed on. My thoughts are that I should split the spectical plate so that it can be assembled, but all that I have seen shows the spectical plate to be one piece. Any comments are appreciated.

Regards,

Brian L

Sorry for the three entries I didn't intend to repeat myself, but the blog's posting procedure said that it failed for the first two tries and required a repeat.

Brian L

Hi Brian.
I finished my Rob Roy last year ( first attempt at loco building) I just now need to build up the enthusiasm to take it all apart for painting, may be you are ment to paint it as you go along!!
I made the spectacle plate cut out slightly larger & can just manage to fit the whole cab in position with out removing any thing. You don't see the gap between it & the boiler once the side tanks & boiler cleading is in place.
Regards Ian

Thanks Ian,

I assume that you cut the spectacle plate so that the lower firebox area is wider but not as wide as the boiler diameter? Should the cleading extend to the backhead or end at the spectacle plate? I have made mine (but not yet fitted) extend to the backhead and this will add another problem of fitting the spectacle plate over the cleading. I have painted mine as I go, but on second thoughts this was not the best approach as now I have to modify the spectacle plate and will need a strip and repaint after the modification.

Regards

Brian L

Hi Brian.
I had my cleading butting up against the out side of the spectacle plate.
i just made the spectacle plate cut out a bit larger( say 1/16") & filed where the boiler radius ( 1 11/16" ) runs into the 1 1/4" radius so I can tilt the cab to clear the turret part & then slide it in to position, (if that makes sence , easier to do than explain)
Regards Ian

Hi to Brian and Ian. I too ran into the same questions on my Rob Roy. The spectacle plate on mine is permanently fixed to the cab. My solution was similar to Brian's except that the cleading goes through the spectacle plate and ends at the backhead. It does not butt up to the spectacle plate. I also must tilt the cab to remove and install. If I remember, I must also remove the sight glass assembly and the crosshead pump valve which I mounted on the back of the right side saddle tank. It is a bit fiddley, but it can be done.
Good luck, Rick

Thanks Ian and Rick,

it seems that there is more ways to skin a cat. I have screwed the spectacle plate to the side tanks, the right hand side also having the crosshead pump valve as a fixing. This gives more rigidity to the cabin when screwed to the spectacle plate. With just the spectacle plate in position I can install the short tube in the cabin space that connects the pass through the RH side tank pipe from the crosshead pump to the cross head pump valve which returns the water to the top of the RH side tank.(???). With the spectacle plate connected to the remainder of the cabin I would not have been able to do this easily. But the concensus is to tilt the spectacle plate to get it over the manifold and upper water gauge fixing. To do this the side tanks must not be fixed in position, which I had done previously. I realise this is going to a fiddly operation but as you say it can be done.

What insulation material have you used for cleading the boiler?

Regards,

Brian L

Hi Brian.
Yes I forgot to say that the side tanks are not in position.
For the insulation I used the sort of stuff you use for insulating exhaust pipes in cars, at least thats what I think its for ( I got it from a traction engine rally ) It's a "sandwich" of aluminium foil-insulating material-aluminium foil, you can get in either a sheet or a bandage, I used the bandage type but in hindsite I thing a piece of sheet would have been better, from what I rememer it was about 3/32" thick.

Regards Ian

Hi Brian & Ian. For my insulation material, I used a material called FIBERFRAX. It is used in aircraft firewalls. It is composed of ceramic fibers and is good for up to 2300 F. Acvailable in 1/8 and 1/16 inch thickness. It is relatively inexpensive. I used the 1/16" thickness because I was cramped for space. For the cleading I used .035" brass sheeting. As a caveat, I have not yet fired my Rob Roy, so I don't know how well the insulation will work, or if it is even worth the effort. In regards to the spectacle plate, I can remove and replace the cab assembly with the side tanks in place. In order to do this, only the manifold is on the boiler. The other fittings need to be installed after the cab is in place.
Regards, Rick

Thanks Ian and Rick,

I live in Adelaide South Australia, so the likelyhood of getting these materials locally or in Australia is slim, although they do have a fairly active Live Steam community in Australia so many have overcome this problem before me. With the advent of the WWW it is easier to source material overseas and the Aussie dollar is strong against other currencies so postage costs would be defrayed by the relatively cheapness of the material. I'll search the web for an overseas source.

I have just completed the brass cleading and made brass securing bands and installed it using 2mm thick card as make-shift insulation. However, making the holes for the manifold, safety valves, steam dome and clack valves on the flat sheet worked out well position wise, but when bending around a steel tube there is a slightly tighter bend at the top of the boiler cleading where the holes were made making the cleading sit up slightly. No amount of judicial tapping could I get it to go down.

I am wondering does your cabin construction have the roof permanently fixed, mine is and the roof has a removeable section at the rear half. I would find it diffulcult to install all the backhead controls with the roof in postion.

Regards,

Brian L

Hi Brian.
I bent my cleading first then using plastic cable straps fixed it to wooden former the same diameter as the boiler + insulation and then made the various openings, this seemed to work o/k for me.
I too have made the rear half of the cab roof removable, but as i said earlier I can get my cab on & off with out removing any of the back head controls.
I'm sure I seen the type of insulation I've used in big DIY shops in the plumbing section used for insulating pipes.
Regards Ian

Hi Brian. If you are interested, I purchased my FIBERFRAX material from an Aircraft Spruce. They are a worldwide distributor of aircraft supplies. Their 2009-2010 catalog (free) has over 800 pages They are represented in Australia by Skyshop.com. Queensland, I think. The cost in the U.S. was minimal. Around $3.00 / S.F. Small orders were no problem. I just ordered it on the net. As for the cleading, I did the same as Ian and used a wooden former with judicious application of force with a rubber mallet. Worked for me. My cab roof is one piece and it is pivoted at the top of the spectacle plate. If you are interested, I could send photos if you send me your e'mail.
Rick
rickhann@fastmail.fm

Thanks Ian and Rick for your timely responses, you have been generous with your time. That is an excellent idea of the wooden former for forming the cleading and drilling the holes after bending, I shall use that method next time if there is a next time. I have overcome the slight sitting up problem by using the brass bands to tighten down along the boiler length. The space between the safety valves is the only area very slightly up. I was probably premature in raising the spectacle plate problem, now that I have worked out the assembly sequence, it is fiddly but tilting the spectacle plate after modification works fine. I have run into another problem, which is using the method described in the manual for fixing the cleading at the firebox, the screws into the foundation ring for fixing the banding stops the boiler from sitting between the frames. The distance between the frames and the firebox width only allows an 1/8th of an inch to play with and the band itself is 0.032", so that leaves only 0.061" left.
Rick I'll send my e-mail address, I shall be interested to see the pictures.

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i have just acquired a rob roy 99% complete but there are a few problems with it i need to remove the cylinders as one of the valve spindles binds when pushed in and out. the drawings nor the book explained how to remove the pipes that connect the steam chests and the cylinders. can anyone help please?

If it is like mine, You have to loosen the locknuts and unscrew both pipes toward the center block. this should give you clearance to remove the piping. Only unscrew each pipe enough to clear the valve chest cover. By the time they meet in the center of the connecting block there should be enough clearance. It is tight, but it can be done.
Rick

i will give it a try thanks